Episode 41

Download Episode 41

Welcome back to Guildcast!  We return after a brief hiatus with a roundtable episode featuring three guests ready and willing to talk all things Guild Wars.  There’s plenty to discuss, too: Embark Beach, seven-hero parties, mercenary heroes, and of course April Fools Day!  Enjoy the show, and we’ll see you next week!

The GuildCast theme song is “The Dirt” by Goddessmusic.

If you’d like to contact us, shoot an email over to shawn@guildcast.com or rubi@guildcast.com. You can also follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Thanks for listening!

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14 Comments

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14 responses to “Episode 41

  1. Rumm

    great guildcast today! the aussie there had a point at the end of the podcast. its funny because as i sit here listening to the podcast, im watching someone play TERA on JTV. the mobs in TERA are pretty sophisticated, they leap at you, you have to time your blocks or you get your butt handed to you, it really takes that whole positioning and timing thing to a new level within an MMO. i challenging AI is certainly a huge part of the game and would make things much more exciting. i by no means am a solo player, but i don’t particularly enjoy PvP, and so the PvE content is all i have. awesome discussion, love listening to you!

  2. MediaMaster9000

    This was a fantastic guildcast. My proverbial reticle has been trained on Yo’s comments… e-mail incoming. 😀

  3. hi, i have joined just recently here on guildwars2guru forum and i enjoyed listening to 2 of your last podcast.
    i want to respond to the guy that talking about the depth of A.I. for pve and pvp.
    I liked that he brought up that subject to emphasize the importance of strategic depth to make GW2 a great game.

    He speak as though it’s almost perceived as an attack to casual pve players, and it might as well be, since hardcore pve players wouldn’t want to fight a dumb-downed boss, instead they want to to figure out how to use their skills in a different manner in order to win. i.e. player vs A.I., man vs machine, outsmarting your opposition.

    I’m sharing a similar background with the speaker in his interest for pvp, strategy and what not, played starcraft 1 and 2 and loving challenge versus players or A.I. in games.

    So i understand his concern for the depth of pve and how a game that’s specifically designed for the masses could jeopardize that depth.

    And i don’t agree with the respond to the statement above with “Well, maybe this game is not designed for you”
    Because with the impression on GW2 and what it can deliver in pvp depth, i can say that GW2 has the potential to make pve attract the hardcore pve players.

    The same can be said for Starcraft 2, i’ve played the single campaign and played competitive ladder games. And if you look at Starcraft 2, which is designed to be an eSport game, you will find that the single player aspect of the game doesn’t has as much depth as it could have been. Which could mean that the single player aspect is designed for the masses, to make it more accessible and in turn, more people get interested in the game. Which can be translated as, dumbed-down gameplay for the hardcore players.

    But in GW2 defence, concerning the aspect of pve for the masses, it has been said by the developers that the demo only showed a mere dumb-down version, and i doubt that the final release will remain the same. However, i would be concerned if the beta of GW2 won’t show the depth of it’s pve and pvp.

  4. Klojamir

    To shed some light on the who skill trainer deal in Pre, I have some information for you. Originally once you had accepted a 2nd profession you had a set amount of skills available to you though the quests. But usually that left one or two skill not available to you. For example the Warrior choosing a monk as a 2nd could not get Healing Breeze. Now with the skill trainer he can go obtain the skills that at one time were not available. I hope this clears a little confusion.

  5. Klojamir

    Ohh, another thing you will be able to get all account wide titles in pre. So over all you will be able to get at least 10 titles in pre. Lucky, Unlucky, Wisdom, Savior of the Kurz, or Lux. Treasure, LDoA, Ale-Hound, Party, Sweets, and Survivor. There maybe more but I can’t think of any atm. It is possible to get the “People Know Me” title in Pre.

  6. ZhadoTom

    I’d have to agree Rumm’s comment, when I was listening to him ramble on TERA did come to my mind. When I first encountered TERA I was hopeful guild wars 2 would go in the same direction, In some aspects they have with dodging and blocking however their AI isn’t up to scratch, sure there are mobs that will knock you down but the problem is there is not enough of them. When watching the shatterer and other epic boss battles I had the feeling they didn’t seem challenging and they appeared to be very static. During the shatterer battle there are many players around that it seems like it’ll be impossible for them all to die at once, so are there alternate defeat conditions? it seems to me that majority of the dynamic evens are more likely to succeed then fail, which personally I see as a very bad thing.

  7. Great podcast everyone!

    Yoh,
    Thanks for bring up AI and strategic depth, and I want to echo your call for the community to focus attention on it. I for one have written an email to GuildCast about wanting to know about AI. I don’t doubt that GW2 will be great and I will love it, but one of my greatest anxieties about the game is that it won’t fulfill the criteria you described. I think I might be more optimistic than you, though.

    I played the PAX Prime demo a few times and I can offer a couple things from my experience to your concerns. First, I’m certain they said at one point that the Shatterer is pinned just for the sake of that demo, and in the game he moves.

    As far as solo vs team play goes, I think GW2’s design as we know it blurs the line between those. In the charr area in the demo I was essentially solo, not having set out with anyone. I got swarmed by branded minotaurs and griffins and had to retreat, using skills to attack and slow them in between dodging. I saw another player in the distance (I was a ranger, they were an ele), and so I ran for them. What I found is that just having that other person for the fight changed everything. Instead of dodging and attacking and using all my potions, we tag teamed naturally, taking turns attacking, supporting, and recovering. The teamwork was emergent, and that’s so important. I think the concept of “solo” won’t apply as much, unless you actively run away from other players.

    Of course, all that is on the players’ side, not the AI side, and so I hope we can learn more about it soon. I’m willing to bet that all the dodging and jumping that players can do are available to mobs and combat will be built around that. Energy is even designed around dodging and active positioning. What it sounds like you want is PvP challenge in PvE, and I’m not even sure that’s possible. But I want it too.

    Shawn/Rubi:
    Perhaps GW/MMO AI, skill, and challenge can be a topic for the next roundtable?

  8. Ixidar

    So who let that troll lose in the podcast? That whole depth discussion was absurd. Mostly I can’t understand what he was looking for or really describing. Saying that star craft has depth and has the potential to be an esport but the pve portions of mmos in general do not is like comparing chess to pen and paper, table top rpgs. They are not the same.

    Ixidar

    • Price

      I agree completely. He’s trying to compare apples to oranges. RTS is not MMO. I think that the kind of content he’s looking for would exist on the PvP side of the game. Then again, you would have to play with others.

      Furthermore, why do MMO’s have to cater to solo players. I love Guild Wars to death, but heroes completely changed the game. It went from being a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, to being a Massive Online game. Playing solo is not multiplayer. If you want to play by yourself, go play other great games like Fallout, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, etc. Please let Guild Wars 2 be multiplayer and not solo player

      I hope I didn’t sound like too much of a rager, but I was so irritated that I had to stop listening to the podcast and come write this. Now back to listening 🙂

  9. ArcherAvatar

    Yoh claimed that Starcraft (2) was superior because it challenged him… I would just like to point out that the AI for Starcraft is extremely rudimentary (no more sophisticated than that of any handfull of MMOs I could rattle off) and the only truly challenging game play in Starcraft is to be had on the battlenet servers VS other players.

    Honestly, after listening to his complaints (which are justified IMO… AI in games in general has a LOT of room for improvement) I believe there is actually a solution to be had for him in GW2 and I was disappointed that none of the other participants in the podcast pointed it out… although Yoh dismissed PvP outofhand at the beginning of his comments, the fact is; that is where he will find the challenge level he’s looking for, AND, moreover, the particular type of PvP offered in the WvWvW setting (The Mists) in GW2 will specifically suit him I suspect…
    Yoh said, “he doesn’t have a competitive bone in his body…” and that was why he avoided PVP, however, aside from that statement being patently, and obviously untrue, the fact of the matter is the style of combat that will most likely be available in The Mists will be far more tactical and strategic than most any other sort previously seen in previous games (MMO and otherwise) and should provide exactly the type of challenge he’s seeking – provided he can open his mind enough to check it out…

    With regards to the state of AI in today’s games, although I agree completely that much improvement is needed, I would also suggest to those ‘bashing’ it that they walk a mile in a programmer’s shoes before doing so… The typical gamer windging about “why don’t they just make the computer smarter?” has no clue about how difficult that ‘simple’ task actually is, and would do well to educated themselves more on the subject before expressing such obviously uninformed rants in the future.

    • Overlord

      I concur that AI in Starcraft 1 was *very* rudimentary. I haven’t bothered with SC2 but skilled Starcraft 1players that I knew would fight 2-4 computer AI players all on the hardest setting in an effort to get any kind of challenge. Yoh scoffs at games that use large numbers to give a challenge but that is *exactly* what SC1 required. Even the campaigns were based mostly on sheer numbers not any innovative AI.

      The only reason SC1’s AI was a challenge was because it did what any computer does well, multitask. It could expand bases the same time it was moving units on the other side of the map. But the tactical and strategic choices it made had neither depth or sophistication. If you played Starcraft 1 against AI opponents often enough you could start to tell what script the AI was running in each game! It was the ‘rush’ script or it’s the ‘air unit’ script etc. There was not a lot of variety.

      I understand his point about wanting a sophisticated AI to add depth to the game but SC1’s depth came from players coming up with interesting builds just for fun, not out of any *need* for it. I would see players trying to make nothing but land units for example, but that was the player imposing their own challenge. They could have easily gone their usual builds and wiped out the AI the same way they had hundreds of times before. All it took was recognizing what script the AI (or AIs) were running and one could easily make counters.

      The true depth of SC1 builds came from fighting human opponents not the AI, but that was not his point. If he wanted an example of a game with a deep AI, he should have picked something beside Starcraft 1.

  10. Desmond

    I really liked the discussion on pve depth in GW2. One thing I personally think would already be a big step forward for solo pve players, is if you were able to somehow solo the dungeons (as opposed to needing a team of 5 closely cooperating players to be able to do them). I don’t know what the mechanics would need to be to be able to solo a dungeon, but that would already add a huge chunk of replayability for solo pve players.

  11. Mattastrophic

    Re: Depth, or lack thereof…

    It’s pretty simple. ANet has a limited amount of development effort (measured in dollars, naturally) they can expend on features and content that will make them the most money. If, say, a very deep PvP system requires 100 hours of development effort, and is forecasted to make X amount of money, while, say, voice acting also requires 100 hours of effort and will make Y amount of money, ArenaNet will go with whichever option produces the greater amount of money. They’ll go with the greater of X or Y.

    In other words, if depth doesn’t make as much money as something else, they’ll go with that something else.

    -Matt

  12. TMcK

    Noob question: What did you mean about accidentally typing “one” or “1” … what did that do and how was it fixed?

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